• Caroline Mattise

Forward Progress Episode 4: Rowing Through Rough Waters


Meghan Casey, a Clinical and Mental Health Counselor, discusses her time as a collegiate rower at the University of Dayton and her emphasis on self-care practices.


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TRANSCRIPTION


C: [00:00:00] Hi, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Forward Progress. I'm Caroline.

S: [00:00:03] And I'm Sophia.

C: [00:00:05] We have a great show for you today. (knock at the door) Yes, I'm recording a podcast.

C: [00:00:33] Before we get started, I just wanted to shout out James Barrett, who recently released a new song titled Love Song in 2020. Stream it on any of your favorite music streaming platforms now.

C: [00:00:49] Hi, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Forward Progress. I'm Caroline.

S: [00:00:53] And I'm Sophia.

C: [00:00:54] We have a great show for you today, a great guest. So let's get started.

S: [00:00:58] Meghan Duggan, three time Olympic hockey player and eight time world champion, has announced her retirement, the former Team USA captain played the forward position and also helped move the sport of professional women's hockey forward. The future of hockey for young girls looks brighter because of her. Also, the NWSL Fall series has come to a close. The top three teams had grants donated to local small businesses. The NWSL continues to make a difference on and off the field. According to reports, viewership for the NWSL has gone up over 400 percent this year. The Black Women's Player Coalition has been formed. It is made up of professional soccer players that play in the NWSL. The Seattle Storm won the WNBA championship. They defeated the Las Vegas Aces in a three game sweep for the title. The Captain for the Seattle Storm, Sue Bird, won her fourth WNBA title. Viewership for the WNBA also went up this year. You love to see it. Head coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers Bruce Arians was awarded Champion for Equality by the Women's Sports Foundation, which was started by Billie Jean King. Arian's made NFL history last year with the hiring of coaches Lori Locust and Maral Javadifar (MJ) also, as she is known. Sorry for saying your government name, MJ, but we love you so much. Congratulations to Bruce Arians. He is well deserving of this award and certainly a champion for equality and equity in sport. And he's making a difference in football and in the world.

C: [00:02:30] And now for your tennis update, Iga Swiatek is the 2020 women's singles Roland Garros champion. And at nineteen years old, she's the first Polish grand slam winner. In the wheelchair Tennis Division's Dylan Alcott is the 2020 quad singles champ and defended his 2019 title. This is only the second year that quad tennis has been included in the Roland Garros tournament. And on the women's wheelchair tennis side, Yui Kamiji won the women's wheelchair tennis singles title at Roland Garros after she won the 2020 US Open doubles title and the twenty 2020 Australian Open doubles title. It's been a great year for Japanese tennis. You love to see it.

S: [00:03:10] You love to see it.

C: [00:03:11] And now let's get into our segment of new athletes to follow.

S: [00:03:15] This week I'm cheating and I have two athletes that you can follow. The first is David Brown, who's the fastest completely blind runner in history. He runs for Team USA. And the other athlete is Ashlyn Harris. She's a goalkeeper for the U.S. women's national team as well as a goalkeeper for Orlando Pride of the NWSL. Ashlyn is such an advocate for LGBTQ rights and is just an overall incredible person. So those are my two people to follow for this week. Caroline, who's your person to follow?

C: [00:03:44] I really just want to shout out Yui Kamiji one more time, because she's won three grand slam titles this year and she has done so much for Japanese tennis and the acceptance in Japan of disabled and para athletes.

S: [00:03:59] You can find links to where to follow the athletes that we recommend in the transcription, which is available on bestavailableplayer.com.

C: [00:04:05] Under the Forward Progress podcast link.

C: [00:04:11] All right, Sophia, who's our guest today. Let's get right to it.

S: [00:04:15] Our guest today is the wonderful, Meghan Casey. She is a child protection therapist based in Colorado. She previously worked as an Athletics Academic Coordinator at Monmouth University. She was a collegiate rower at Dayton. She's a yoga instructor and a really good friend of both Caroline and I. We're super excited to have her on the podcast. She talks about growing up biracial, half black and half white in predominantly white spaces, and how sports and yoga have played and continue to play a positive role in her life. I hope you enjoy our conversation was there. I know I did.

C: [00:05:09] Meghan, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.

M: [00:05:12] Hi, so happy to be here.

C: [00:05:14] So where are you right now?

M: [00:05:15] Currently, I'm in Lakewood, Colorado. It is a suburb of Denver and I'm actually walking my dog in the park. So, you know, coping skills.

C: [00:05:26] That's good. And we're going to get into that later. SO let's just go back to when you were a kid. What were some of the sports that you played growing up?

M: [00:05:34] I am one of the most competitive people I know. So I've tried a lot of different sports. I did soccer. I did volleyball, basketball, softball track. I was a ballet dancer. I did gymnastics at one point. So all of those really competitive things as a kid and then in seventh grade got really, really sick, found out I could no longer participate in contact sports, even though I still did for a year and then found rowing, thankfully.

C: [00:06:04] So how did you find rowing? When I think of Ohio, I don't really think of a place that has a lot of rivers and rowing and stuff like that. But the Ohio River is a major river that runs into Pittsburgh. But yeah. So how did you get into rowing?

M: [00:06:17] I am from northwest Ohio. Forty five minutes south of Detroit is my hometown, Toledo, and there's a big river there. And I went to one of the all girls Catholic high schools there. And there just happened to be a team in my eighth grade teacher's daughter was a coxswain at the school that I was going to. The teacher suggested it to me because she knew I was really competitive and she knew that I was looking for something else to be competitive in now that my sports were kind of less than they would have been.

C: [00:06:45] What is a coxswain and what are the other rowing positions and/or boating categories?

M: [00:06:52] There are two types of people that row. There are the toxins and there's the rowers. The toxins are the people that are steering. They're going to those coaches meetings first thing in the morning. They're helping with the race plan. They're your counselor. Everything you need, they're like you're a little baby coach. They also steer, which is important because not everybody has equal strength and people have certain positions within the boat because of their abilities. So the coxswain is supposed to help you go a narrow path, because if you have people who are different string, you're going to leave it. It's going to take you longer to get down the race course. So there's several kinds of boats, singles. Then you have pairs. They're sweeping, which means they have one oar, and then there's doubles, which everyone has two oars and they're sculling. So that's sculling and sweeping category also goes with four people boats and eight people boats. So you have quads, which is sculling. Your fours, you're sweeping. Eights. People who are in the boat have different jobs too. And in rowing you sit down and go backwards to go forwards. The coxswain can either be in the stern of the boat, which is the back if you're on the shore or in the bow of the boat. And then you start from the bow seat and that's how you count up. So your bow set is also your one person. And then two, three, four, and then the middle part of the boat, bigger, stronger people. And that's called the engine room. And then the people in the bow are usually shorter people, but not always or skinny or people, because I still have scars from trying to fit into boats because I'm a little hippy.

C: [00:08:32] Yeah, they look, they look so narrow. The whole thing looks so narrow.

M: [00:08:37] Yeah. Some of them are really narrow. It just depends on the manufacturer and where it's made. Sometimes they have these bolts that stick out. The older ones are made out of metal and fiberglass and then you have different types of oars too.

C: [00:08:51] Ok, so what was your specialty in high school.

M: [00:08:54] So I would sit in the middle. I'm really strong and I'm really hippy. So works out great. And rowing was my coping skill because when I was 16, I was so angry. My parents had a really unhealthy relationship. And so I needed to get off all that aggression out. And that was my coping skill, being outside, being in nature or being with my dogs. I used to break all these records or be the fastest person in my grade or on the team because my coxswain knew to use my anger to help me. So that's something that has always helped or rowing for other people. In rowing, it's so selfless of a sport because, you know, if someone's having a crap day, you know, someone's having a great day, you know. You can feel it because you can only see the person in front of you. You turn your head, you're going to miss something smacked with an oar, which is called catching a crab. And sometimes you very rarely can get ejected out of the boat by catching a crab. You really have to pay attention to what you're doing. There is no talking in rowing. You can talk, you throw harder. So I don't want to hear anything but you breathing. That whole "gently down the stream, row, row, row your boat". I had a coxswain do that one time. Poor girl. She got yelled at by me, because no one wants to hear that. If it's a 5k, you're looking at least 20, 15, 20 minutes of rowing depending on if you're going with the wind against the wind, what time of day it is, what kind of water it is. That's a little hint of rowing.

C: [00:10:27] When did you decide that there was something that you wanted to pursue in college?

M: [00:10:31] Yeah. So I grew up with a dad who.. My whole family is a sports family, but my dad and I were super, super close when I was little. And he had this grand idea that I was going to go to Tennessee and play women's basketball there and play for the great Pat Summitt. But I freaking hated it. It was... Looking back, I know why I hated it because it's inside. And I hate being inside. And I didn't want to practice shooting a thousand free throws or anything like that, I wanted to be in water, so I saw some of my teammates get recruited and my one of my coaches went to the University of Cincinnati and rowed.

C: [00:11:11] So this was in high school.

M: [00:11:15] Yeah this was in high school. So I started my freshman year in the fall. Rowing is really expensive. I grew up with a single mom. At that point. My dad and I weren't talking, so we couldn't afford for me to play because my sister was playing travel volleyball. So I took that spring semester off and missed out on that spring season, which rowing is kind of like track where in the fall it's five k's, 5000 meters, so three point one miles. And in the spring it's like track where they line up. So you have lanes, you can hear people and you have these like really cool starts. I love a start. It's just like you can't think at all and you just have to be in sync with everybody. If somebody catches a crab there, you have like I think it's one hundred and forty meters where if somebody messes up, you have to turn around and start over.

C: [00:12:06] Were you ever in a boat that messed up in that first hundred and forty.

M: [00:12:09] Uh, no. But when I was I remember one time in high school there was like this one day in October for three years, I caught a crab that same day, same day I caught three crabs in one race my freshman year. It was like, this is the worst thing ever because it wasn't like a little just whack, like you got hit in the neck. I almost like got out of my seat. You're in this, like, unisuit, soaking wet. It's not a good look. And the shoes. And it always cracks you up when people are sneaker heads because they could never be rowers, because you drop your shoes off before the race, you hope that someone brings them to you after the race. You're walking barefoot, wet in socks and whatever after the race. But these shoes are like the little kid Velcro ones.

C: [00:12:59] Are they like cycling shoes, you know, the ones that were like clip on to a bike?

M: [00:13:03] They are bolted to the boat.

C: [00:13:04] Oh okay.

M: [00:13:05] Like, let's say you have two boats of people that you're going to use the same boat. You have time switch the shoes out. You just hope that they're similar height and push the same as you because you don't always have time to switch.

C: [00:13:17] When did you decide that you were going to row at Dayton?

M: [00:13:21] Ok, so I got recruited my junior year, but it was all like D2, D3 schools and I was not about that life. And so I applied to like eight schools. I applied to my grandpa's alma mater in Boston because that's where he is from. My dream was like to be a OBGYN and be a doctor. So I was like, I'm going to go to Tufts. Didn't get in. And in February of my senior year, I was at my grandpa's house with him and are really, really close. And he was yelling at me like, why haven't you picked a college? Why don't you know where you're going? I'm like it's freaking February. And my mom called and said, hey, you got this big envelope from Dayton. And I opened it and she's like, oh, you got in. And so I looked at him. I said, I'm going to Dayton. And they just happened to have a rowing team. And so right after that conversation, I got into this really bad car accident and my knee was messed up.

C: [00:14:12] Wow. You have zero luck with cars.

M: [00:14:15] Same knee.

C: [00:14:16] She's had three accidents where it has messed up her knee and she's had to have surgery. Did you have surgery the first time?

M: [00:14:24] Yeah, that was the first two surgeries, but I didn't them until my senior year of college.

C: [00:14:28] Oh, gosh.

M: [00:14:29] So I was like, you know what? I'll see if I can row at Dayton. I went to the meeting, the fall of my freshman year. And I was pre-med at the time and it just didn't work with my schedule. And because of how my knee was, I was like, I'll just wait. I was not in rehab. I did not know what I was doing. Like I should have known better or ask someone, how can I fix this knee? But I didn't in my freshman year was so traumatic for my mental health. I had been an athlete for fifteen years at that point. And to go from being so structured and being around my dog all the time and having my teammates and having a very regimented schedule where I worked to pay my tuition in high school, I would find rides and stuff. I lost it and my dad's mom died. And my dad and I have a really complicated relationship. And so that summer after my freshman year, I was like, I can't live like this. Like, I can't be this person. I'm not going to be alive if I stay this person. And I got this tattoo and I was like, you know what, we're going to row, because I knew that worked. So I went to the meeting my sophomore year. They started having me come to varsity practice. So when you are a first year rower, you're called a novice. It doesn't matter what year you are. Followed my sophomore year I was going to go two days varsity and novice practice and being pre-med and. Then there's all this study hall stuff, and because my freshman year I had such a crap job being a student, I had all these study hours meeting with the learning specialists and all this stuff. And my random roommate just happened to be on the rowing team and she has been my best friend since then. Just happened. It just happened like that. And I was getting better, like I was getting back into the groove and becoming a person again. Like I had friends that were amazing and would make me dinner or like we would talk about stuff. And I remember one of the upperclassmen saying, we're so glad you're here because everybody else on the team was white. I mean, my whole rowing career, I was like one of the token kids where if you see another kid of color on a rowing team, you give them that head nod like I see you, boo. Also, I'm about to crush you, so get ready. But it was it was so interesting to be that person. And I've always been that way where I was one of the first biracial kids at my grade school, and they used to write my race down wrong so they could get more money. And my mom this like tiny Irish woman, her momma bear-ness would come out. And so I saw that and I saw how I got bullied as a kid. So when my teammates in college validated my experience and were like, we're so happy you're here. We love you just the way that you are and you love us and we're going to do this together. That changed everything for me. And I still talk to them all the time, like family forever.

C: [00:17:30] So then when did you switch your major from premed.

M: [00:17:32] So in that fall, I had a 2.07 GPA, so I barely was eligible, barely. And so our academic advisor, academic coordinator said what do you want to do. And at the time I wanted to be a OBGYN and go to Africa and help people have babies naturally in a healthy way and give access. So she said, OK, you can switch to biology. It'll be the same as premed. And we'll just because I'm crap at chemistry, I don't know, money and chemicals go right over my head. So I switched to bio, was doing a little bit better, but still like limping along. And then my junior year I was failing. O chem and the rowing team is all walk ons, so I had a job too when I was in undergrad. So I was going to morning practice every morning, getting up at 5:30 having practice till eight, and then going to either study hard work or class the whole day, getting home super late. And so my junior year I had been doing better, my psych classes. So I switched to psych and I did a bachelor's of science in psych. So I still had that science basis but was taking all the psych classes and was doing way, way better. My academic coordinator said, you're not stupid and the learning specialist said the same thing. You're not stupid. You're just not good at the hard sciences right now. And so those two women I owe so much to because they were the ones that were like, you're not bad because you can't do this. You're good at these. So why don't we focus over here? Because that's what you're really good at. So that's how I try to be with people now too.

C: [00:19:08] We know that you are super into yoga. You're an instructor, big into mindfulness. When did you first start to get into those type of healing processes? Was that in college or was that post grad?

M: [00:19:22] I have always been an outdoor kid. I stepped on a rake when I was a kid because I just wasn't wearing shoes in the garden. And so I've kind of always been brought to nature. Like I have a lot of farmers in my family, but my junior year in high school, we would have a yoga instructor come to us, which is great. And also meant we didn't have to practice, so...

C: [00:19:44] That's a much easier morning.

M: [00:19:46] Oh, thank God.

C: [00:19:48] When you worked at Monmouth as an Athletic Academic Administrator, you were also getting your master's degree. Talk about why you wanted to get that masters degree and what it specifically focuses on.

M: [00:20:02] When I moved to New Jersey, it was four months after I had a really close friend die unexpectedly. And he was the starting center at Dayton. And that was the worst ESPN update I've ever gotten in my life. And I stayed in Dayton because him and I had a conversation about taking care of each other. So I stayed because of that. And after he died, his academic advisor was kind enough to take me in and show me the ropes and tell me what I needed to do differently. And so I got this job and knew that I wanted to go into counseling because I had benefited from it so much. It just happened that I had this really good program that's accredited, which is one of the highest accommodations you can get. So I started that at Monmouth made it my own. My freshman year of high school, there was a documentary called A Hero for Daisy and it talked of the 1970s at the Yale rowing team and just how the men's team had warm buses. The women's team was freezing. They didn't have the same material. So they wrote Title nine across their breasts and walked in and flashed the AD. And I remember being a freshman in high school and being like, that's freaking amazing. And that moment.. Because I would have done that. You both know I would have done that. And so that for me was like, oh, have some power here and how can I use that or have this inspired me. So we named one of our boats in high school, Daisy's Heroes. And so I've really taken that to heart. Another one of the boats was named Moxie, which means courage. So you have these boats that have these names that you embody. And I've taken all of that stuff with me. And I think about all of that with how I'm a counselor and who I can help and using those unconventional ways or really being curious with the clients that I'm working with, if I'm noticing a bias within myself, putting a pin in that and trying to gain more insight about someone else's experience and also at the same time protecting my own energy, because I realized that if I feel too much of what everyone else is feeling that's going to take away from my healing of what I'm trying to work on. And then I'm not going to be effective and just project on to them when they're trying to heal. So it's a really tricky balance going to the feeling that someone else is feeling and also cutting that tie when I'm away from them. So I'm not staying up in the middle of the night trying to figure out stuff that I have no control over.

C: [00:22:31] What do you think was one of the biggest challenges facing athletes that you worked with?

M: [00:22:37] Great question. I think the biggest challenge was not feeling heard. So I think that there are a lot of issues where there were a lot of people who have expertise in various areas. However, I don't think that all of the athletes felt like their experience, their personal experience was heard and then supported in the way that they needed it. So I think that's something that really carries with me of really making sure that I'm hearing people and that they're feeling supported within the role and making sure that I have boundaries around that.

C: [00:23:10] Would you like to go back into working in athletics?

M: [00:23:13] I would. However, I don't want to ever do academics again. It's not my thing. If I went back into athletics, I would want to be in a mental health role and player development. My ultimate goal is to work with football. And I'm just going to keep telling as many people that,

C: [00:23:30] Yes, you have to share it with people so that people can help you.

M: [00:23:33] Someone will... I will work with a football team because I get football. My dad play football his whole life and almost played for the Eagles way back in the day. I've loved football. I was born during a football game. So I see myself working with football. Especially being friends with you and Sophia and having people like Dr. McGovern in my life and Dr. Drewson and some of my professors is being real, and even my therapist is being really intentional with the language that we use. So not saying things like guys or straight even manifest, you know, like if someone has a history of trauma, those kinds of harsh words or non-inclusive words can really be triggering. So even when I'm guiding someone through a yoga sequence, I'll say extend the leg instead of straighten the leg, because I know the word straight can be a trigger. And in some cultures that means good. But it just really thinking about what we say. So someone has a history of abuse or assault, saying things like that sucks or that's really hard. It could be triggering. So trying to be really inclusive with language that we're using and being intentional with it.

C: [00:24:42] Ok, what are some things that you do, could be daily, or maybe during the week for your own mental health?

M: [00:24:51] One of my most influential professors was when I had in grad school Dr. Branch, and he really talked about making self care a part of a daily routine. So he would talk us through his ESPM model that he calls it. So emotional, mental, spiritual and physical and trying to think about things in a realistic way that you either already do or are willing to add to your life to give yourself time. So for someone, maybe it's getting up a little bit earlier and taking some time to meditate. My sister and I are doing this self care challenge. So I have this, like, morning routine that I go through where I get up and I scrape my tongue and I water my plants and I take my dog out. And then I sit quietly, meditate for a couple of minutes, drinking a lot of water. I notice that if I get stressed out, I'll go outside and take my shoes off and put my foot in dirt, grass, sand, water, whatever it is, because that's really grounding. So getting back into my body by doing these things and working on being consistent, if you're an athlete and it's in season, you're trying to build up muscles. Your goal is to be able to squat 200 pounds. You're not going to start with one hundred and ninety. You're going to start with 50 or whatever it is to see what you can do and then work on being consistent as you build. So maybe it's sitting and taking three deep breaths and that's your meditation and then adding as it becomes more of a routine and more muscle memory goes in. I've noticed that if I don't do those things, I suffer. And then the people that I'm working with supporting suffer. So doing inversions, which is when your head is below your heart. So if that's bending over and bringing your hands to your knees or wherever you safely land, or maybe it's doing a handstand, but being a college athlete and being in all these car accidents, I have some lifelong injuries. It's like I have to take care of myself because I know that your body will hold the stress and tension and there's where the injuries come in. So making sure I'm drinking lots of water or having my heating pad while I'm doing a session, if I'm working from home or moving a little bit more to make sure that I'm getting that movement. Most of my coping skills revolve around movement or music or plants. So... Or my dog.

C: [00:27:04] All good things. All good things. OK, so you have mentioned a few of the rowing coaches that you've had. Do you have any or were there any mentors could be in sports outside of sports that helped you, guided you?

M: [00:27:20] Yeah, I have a lot, thankfully, and it's not funny, but it's really cool that I have all these strong women in my life because for a long time I had some complicated relationships with men in my family. So being surrounded by strong women helps me to heal and step into my own power of who I am. And then I can look back and say, my friends from college, Alex and Ali and Ali and Rachel and even the seniors like people you would look up to if we had these boards for the last 20 years, people who have broken records. And then they would come back for alumni weekends like, holy crap, she's here. I get to see Sadie. They are. Oh, my God. And fangilring. This Is so cool. Like I've met Olympic rowers. Oh, my God. It's so cool. My coach in high school, Anna, was great. And my coach in college, Brittany, that when I got injured, our conference championships, my senior year, I rotated my rib. We had one more race left and I almost couldn't breathe. I was in so much pain. And she looks at me and I look at her and her college teammate actually it was like fixing it. And she looks at me and goes, You have a week, you're fine. I'm like, Yeah, I am. And I do have a high pain tolerance. So it was fine. But we also had those experiences of being discriminated against because we were walk ons or we played the weird sport where people didn't understand that we got up at five o'clock every day and had to carry our stuff and sometimes it would be pouring or snowing and all this stuff and we still did it together. I have a lot of really strong people to look up to, but like I think about the football guys at Monmouth who, like, I cry like how grateful I am that I had that experience of working with them, I mean, and all of the other athletes too. But they really pushed me to be firm with my boundaries and also help them to feel supported. And I still talk to some of them. I tell them all the time and I tell you all this all the time, like I got to always and I mean that, like, you have these people in your life that they can stay as long as they want to, as long as it's healthy. And then you set boundaries from there.

C: [00:29:34] To our recurring questions, what is a sport that you wish you saw or were exposed to more when you were younger?

M: [00:29:41] Oh, shoot, this is the one I didn't actually think about.

C: [00:29:44] You had so much time to prepare.

M: [00:29:48] Oh, I know. I have the ice cream sandwich one down. I forgot about the sport. I got exposed to a lot of weird, like weird, weird sports. Like my art was a competitive ice skater. My cousin played rugby. I rowed. So. I know. I'm like thinking about if I had to go back a sport I would have played I want to stay lacrosse. But that's not it either, because I don't think I would have been good at that. But I think I would be great at hockey because if I didn't have this blood disease, I would have been a great football player, OK? I definitely would have a defense... probably hockey or football, of course.

C: [00:30:33] Ok, those are good. OK, apparently you've been preparing for this next one for quite some time. What is your ideal ice cream sandwich?

M: [00:30:42] Ok, so I have a dairy allergy.

C: [00:30:45] And you're vegan.

M: [00:30:46] Yes. OK, so I'm from Ohio. There's this little ice cream place in Delphos, Ohio, that they have this ice cream called Playdough and it's vanilla ice cream.

C: [00:30:58] I've tasted Playdoh not so hot.

M: [00:31:00] No, no, no. It's vanilla ice cream that they put food dye in, so it's yellow and then they have red and blue sugar dough balls because I don't like chocolate. So chocolate chip cookie dough just ugh. And then I would do one shortbread cookie and one oatmeal cookie and that would be it.

C: [00:31:18] You are going for the two different buns, OK!

M:[ 00:31:21] I mean, I'm biracial. I rowed both sides like I just like both. OK, let me live my best life being both.

C: [00:31:30] We love it. We love you. Oh my gosh. That sounds like… Now, I want to try that. Playdough.

M: Delphos, Ohio. And if you go there, you also have to go to Wapak

C: What's the name of the ice cream shop?

M: I don't know. It's like three stoplights in this town.

C: [00:31:43] And you can't remember the only ice cream place in a hundred miles?

M: I haven’t been there in six years. There's always a wraparound line. But if you go to Delphos, you also have to go to Wapak, which is Wapakoneta, but it's where the Neil Armstrong Museum is. And my grandpa was an engineer and they were buddies like, Hello...

C: [00:32:07] Thank you so much for being on the podcast today. Thank you for having me. Love talking to you. Yes. Oh, sad that you're so far away in Colorado, but glad that you are up to new and exciting things.

M: Yes. You have to come visit.

C: Yes, we will.

M: [00:32:22] Yes, Kita, she's napping.

C: [00:32:25] I was waiting for her to just sneak her head in, see what's up.

M: [00:32:32] She’s asking for attention, but she has too many. I got her a kids meal last night because I don't eat meat either. But... She's like a I don't she eats like a college kid where we went to the dog store in one of the little towns around Denver. She went right for the bison shoulder. It's like, OK, well.

C: Forward Progress is produced by Caroline Mattise with a little help from Sophia Lewin.

S: True.


C: And is brought to you by Best Available Player. Find more podcasts, articles and video content related to sports and entertainment on bestavailableplayer.com. All the music in this podcast is by James Barrett, a good friend and an even better musician. Be sure to check him out on your favorite music streaming platform. And because we're all about inclusivity and accessibility, each podcast of Forward Progress will be transcribed and available on bestavailableplayer.com.

Mental Health Resources:

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/

https://www.nami.org/help